United3dArtists Archive

for a while know I've been researching various resources trying to determine the best to use for my project, get it from paper to program
Gamestudio A8 was my initial thought but after looking over the several examples found that it reminds a lot of the old 2D top down strategy/tactics -type games. You know the ones with the bars atop the object for health. The other factor was the environments were non-transitional.
Next,
Blender...not quite sure how to use it as an engine. Documentation lacking that I've searched for online. Unless I'm incorrect in my assumption, probably not the best choice. Not unless someone here has had experience with it's use either way.
I have looked over 3D Rad, DX Studio and CryENGINE and their documentation and tutorials. There is something I noticed, that all seem to have the individual working within a box. A box within a box within a box...etc. Also, that it seems we are meant to think linear or by creating things upon a given plane.

I would like to think there is an engine out there created by someone or even one of the engines that I currently have that would enable me to work on a few dimensions other than distance, left and right.
With flight simulators, you can set up additional monitors to allow the player to have the periphery view. Could have the illusion of that by making the UI appear concave. Be the fish in the fish bowl.
I'm getting ahead of myself here as I'm a long way from moving the UI drawn on paper and used as a UI.

But which to choose of the engines listed would be best suited to learn that would enable the incorporation of fluid motion forward without points of transition (like the Aurora engine) requires.
Example: dig a hole and you descend into the ground or tunnel into a hill or mountain side. another,
example: the player walks along the beach and decides to walk into the water, physics of buoyancy and weight. Enough weight and the individual player can continue to walk until submerged or be required to swim.

That the individual player reacts to the environment as if they were within a sphere.

If the engines I currently listed would not allow for what I want to create.
Could someone suggest alternatives?

I noticed you didn't include Unity3Das a possible engine. I totally recommend this one, it is a fast growing engine, free essential program, multiplatform, and cheap if you want the full thing. It is powerful, and considering the IK rig abilities and animation editors, and some of the short realtime films I've seen done in this, I would recommend learning this one for sure. Not to mention DirectX11 for PC with Nvidia physics.

I think the things you should be looking for must include a lot of physics engine capabilities if you want water and the like.

I haven't made too many games, and don't know too much... But as far as I know there are some factors you need to keep in mind:

Is your game on 2D planar gameplay (X and Y axis only) or is it a 3D gameplay (X and Y and Z axis).

Now, you need to consider, is your gameplay going to include time, is it realtime gameplay or is it turnbased? Account the 4D aspect of your gameplay, as some would put it.

Once you have decided these basic ideas, this will narrow down the type of games you can create.

If you choose 3D, do you want a sandbox game (like minecraft, GTA, Simcity, The Sims, etc) where you are given an large world and you can do what you want in it (Skyrim, etc), or is it more a linear game that has a strict linear storyline?

Will it be multiplayer? Single player only? an online community or MMO?

Will it be action? Adventure? Mystery?

Will it be a a higher end multi faceted storyline? Where there are multiple stories that interweave and change according to your choices as a player in the world?

Will it be a racing game? A flight simulator? A Mech game? A platform game? A space game? Do you have games that inspire your ideas and want to follow? It's hard to create new things, there is very few new things under the sun, and the best take ideas already done and make them better.

Once you have your game idea in check, you have to think on the method of the storyline or gameplay to achieve this fantasy, and how much freewill you want to give the user, the world, and his involvement of his imagination, and the features that will help him be someone or something in this world to entice him to complete the challenges and have fun.

Most succesful games give a lot of freewill to the user, for example FPS or sandbox games or some platform games provide endless possibilites of what a user can do in the game universe, and thus the succes. Call of Duty, the Sims, GTA, minecraft, etc.

For example:
You're idea is for giant bacteria that needs to travel the vascular system in a host's body to get to the brain, multiply and kill it. You start in the feet. Single player or 2 player coop.

You want to do this in 3D in realtime, with very little level loading, with progressive motor skill requirements to advance through the body. You will have to fight Tcells, Dcells, white blood cells, and other cells that will come in your way. You will have to create bacteria armies on the way, or companions by combining genetics that will acquire a long the way. There will be different routes, one is throught the lymphatic system, the arteries, the veins, the digestive, through flesh and fat, over the skin. 5 possible routes, and they can connect with other routes, and each way has different enemies and methods of passing each checkpoint.

Ok, that's a good idea.

Now to do this, you need to start getting the look and feel and the elements sorted on paper. Start doing the concepts of what each patheway will look and what each adversery on each pathway will be, the bonus elements and methods one needs to get past each checkpoint, and where the bridges on the pathway should be.

Once that is sorted, you start to think on the engine and the 3D design and everything - creating the geometry, the models, levels, characters, items, elements. Then you start to code everything, connect the cause and effect parts of your world, like when you reach a checkpoint in a pathway to the goal, you go to this level. Do you carry on things from the past levels? UI, etc. At what point to enemies appear, at what point does the challenge appear, etc. This is the part where you start to think about the "how" will the player exercise his freewill, be involved in your imagination or story or world, and interact with the elements you want to include (different body fluid viscosity, the enemies, different level up's, bacteria upgrades and genetics, the different challenges as you progress, the rewards, the methods, etc)

Then once you have the mechanics sorted, you can focus on making it beautiful, meanwhile you keep making more artistic elements for the mechanics. Once you have this sorted, you can add the postprocess effects offered by your game engine (motion blur, glow, bloom, DOF, screen particles, solar flares, lighting, GI, IBL, AO, AAA, etc) and the optimization and get the final look and constant framerates and load times that won't annoy the user yet impress them with a smooth, beautiful experience....

Then test it like mad. Fix everything, being a essentially a program.. you will fight the bugs until it is good enough for the game not to fail.

When you are happy and spent the larger part of your year, years, and tons of coffee to produce such a game.. you can breathe... and then try convince people to distribute your game for you.. or do it yourself.

Sometimes just making the Demo version (1 level of your concept game, or just the concept game with little artwork and the basic mechanics) will suffice if you need the cash and support and team to make the final polished game. I would go this route, because you can develop the whole concept, from start to finish, without having to make the whole game with the hundreds if not thousands of elements, tens to hundreds of levels or possible paths and elements to code and the almost infinite amount of creativity and hard work and the hundreds of man hours you need to put into a polished final product that incorporates good freewill and involvement for the user's imagination.

A pilot is manageable, and helps for you to convince other people to help you produce it, find investors, and a potential market. Get the hype rolling...

And who knows! Maybe you will be successful. The trick is finish what you started... as Thomas Edison mentioned somewhere "It takes 1 percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration," to create what you want.




So conclusion, what program will facilitate all your ideas above? A 3D engine with quick load times for various levels, LOD culling for mass amounts of bacteria characters and elements, softbody simulations (gelatin or soft sack like physics), some cool post process effects (bloom and glow with DOF for the miniature liquid feel) and some basic animation capabilites, and limited partilcle. Also the mechanics will need surround sound ability, since it's in 3D. And due to the scale of the game, it will have to be an easy engine to learn, with the option to code in it and lots of support and tutorials. Unity3D looks like a good candidate, and unlike Cryengine, you keep a lot of the rights to your product. The other ones you mentioned I don't know if they'd suffice, but for now, Unity3D will work perfectly for this idea.


Now thinking about.. If I didn't have my job and current project, I would make this game, seems like fun!
*************I HOLD RIGHTS TO THESE IDEAS!***************
This is just an example! I just got carried away with the idea..

Thanks for the suggestion of checking out unity3d, I had considered using it as an engine but wanted to check out other options first

I will attempt to answer your questions: (this is going to be long, sorry)

Is your game on 2D planar gameplay (X and Y axis only) or is it a 3D gameplay (X and Y and Z axis).

= 3D with a little anime-type appeal but still attempting to figure out the anthropomorphic aspect for characters

Now, you need to consider, is your gameplay going to include time, is it realtime gameplay or is it turnbased? Account the 4D aspect of your gameplay, as some would put it.

= realtime

Once you have decided these basic ideas, this will narrow down the type of games you can create.

If you choose 3D, do you want a sandbox game (like minecraft, GTA, Simcity, The Sims, etc) where you are given an large world and you can do what you want in it (Skyrim, etc), or is it more a linear game that has a strict linear storyline?

= I know a lot about the game AI used by the Aurora engine, but found it limited, especially when it came to physics and transitions but really enjoyed the aspect of how players could use scripts and/ or haks to improve their gaming experience and how players were free to setup their own servers for their own worlds. But with a character profession, Geomancer, a player could create pocket realms. An unusual aspect of the game but one that may appeal to certain players.
For purposes of ease and a beginning, access to water and even air may be something that could be added as updates as they are developed. I think I should just concentrate on the earth aspects and elemental influence.

Will it be multiplayer? Single player only? an online community or MMO?

= I would like the game to become an mmorpg but after considering what you have said, that is a potential bar to reach. I think I would settle for a multiplayer rpg. However, there is no reason that the foundations of an mmo can not already be included in the creation process.

Will it be action? Adventure? Mystery?

= There is the leaning towards pvp and pve, but that is the option of the players and they can ignore another player's want to pvp. Unlike some games that I have played online that insist a player engage in pvp to gain access to improved equipment and/or items. Action would certainly exist for players, the Hunter skillset which is an option during character creation would allow it. Adventure is a given for sure. Mystery, definitely.

Will it be a a higher end multi faceted storyline? Where there are multiple stories that interweave and change according to your choices as a player in the world?

= storylines can be generated by established players.
= what I have written down is a number story seeds, that provide players to solve the mystery surrounding the world, as it is a terraformed moon in orbit around a brown dwarf. (existing technology is hidden but can be found by the more adventurous player)
= a story seed based on origins, a tribe exists that provided the genetic code that was used to create all the other tribes in the world. (who, why, where and how are the questions that can be answered by seeking answers)
= storytellers can provide such but utilizing character backgrounds. That was something I have found interesting in some online rpg's and so there would need to be a collection of tools in place for players wanting to create a quest or campaign. Some players prefer to be a storyteller than be a player as they get to have fun by watching other players enjoy themselves. Something I remember enjoying when used to play various dice games eg. AD&D, Traveller and similar rpgs.
= and like any good rpg, choices a player makes often lead to different conclusions.
these all lead to skill points to be awarded that can be used to develop the character instead of using experience and level to determine power level. A player character should be a mystery to other player's.
" ...it's a horrid creature, with huge fangs....(a cute white bunny that leaps up and tears your throat out) - Monty Python* that's how I believe character development should be, hidden from view.

Will it be a racing game? A flight simulator? A Mech game? A platform game? A space game? Do you have games that inspire your ideas and want to follow? It's hard to create new things, there is very few new things under the sun, and the best take ideas already done and make them better.

= if I go the route of module upgrades for the basic game, then flight simulator would be something for characters with wings or those that have the Elemental Influence: Air, same with water for a submerged environment to explore, sea floor and lake floor would definitely expand the existing map but also include additional game mechanics for characters with Elemental Influence: Water.
= the UI I have thought should have two possibilities for player experience, a player could have the option of isometric view (external camera control) or avatar view (like a first-person shooter) which I found in a Mech game I played years ago that was DOS-based, Privateer was a game that comes to mind that also allowed this as a UI option.
= since the world is a terraformed moon orbiting a brown dwarf, there are other satellites in orbit, which is why I came up with the Profession: Geomancer as a possibility, for the purpose of exploring beyond the given world.
= the UI would behave, at least that is my hope, like a console game, click (on opponent)-hold (determine strength of attack)-release (hope to hit with a focused attack or center of AoE) which of course works only with the Professions: Witch, Shaman, Sorceror, Shadowcaster and Weaponcaster.
= UI would work differently for melee and ranged attacks. Simple point and click to attack.

My replies are not the full extent of what I have created on paper but it would give anyone reading this an idea of what I want to create and maybe there are those here that are working to create something similar.
The worst thing about all this, is that I lost everything and have to start over from scratch. PC, software and backups, even past notes. Start over and hope I can remember 12 years of work. What really bites is that much of the software I had is no longer available.
Fires suck!

Aszhrae wrote: "I was wondering if there is anything else that might be of an assist in creating anthropomorphic characters?"


Is free OK? If so, there's MakeHuman.

http://www.makehuman.org/"


(sorry-repost- somehow I replied as you- must have hit edit rather than reply)

thank you spacekdet for the link, I will check it out

Daz Studio is useful for creating human and humanoid characters too.

I have managed to gather together a few programs that are 3d, not relying on any program specifically as each has their pros and their cons.
Some would say that mastering a single program is important but it has been my experience, especially when it is required at a later date to create a team, I be familiar with other programs and not limit my understanding.
Daz Studio I have already and in the process of acquiring the needed models. Victoria, Michael, Hiro and Enki as well as a few other attachments. However, if I were specifically focusing on humanoids I would focus on Daz Studio but not of the tribal races are remotely human except for maybe two.
I don't want to use the concept of metamorphosis as the base for a tribal race. Instead I want to go the route of a race capable of dropping to all fours as a quadruped to standing up to become a biped. There are few games that do this.
I'm attempting to build a game based on unique concepts rather than look down the road already well traveled.

See what everyone else is doing and don't do that.

virtual worlds and 3D avatars. I have played a few and I really would like to create a world with an environment that challenges the player and offers a unique experience for the player.
It may not be tomorrow or next year, but I will get there eventually and if people get on board with the idea along the way, a working beta will happen sooner than later.

I lost 12 years of work on this and I'm having to start over again, which I stated before and it really doesn't bother me if it takes another 12 years to rebuild. I'm not doing this to become rich. I'm just doing it because I think getting there will be an opportunity to learn and to have fun when it's completed.

Thanks for the suggestion Finis.

Draise suggested Unity, have it
spacekdet suggested Makehuman, have it
finis suggested Daz Studio, have it, with Genesis, also have Bryce
current softwares:
Vue 11 Infinite, Blender 2.65 and trueSpace 7.61
and several other software,
TimelineFXEditor, Raptr, audioCutter, Gimp, gmax
and each engine has its own tools that can be imported/ exported
3D Rad, DX Studio, CryEngine and Unity

Not going to make the mistake of relying on a single piece of software. Did that once before, years ago, big error in judgement.

Be diverse, Be secure, Be cautious, and Be open to other people's ideas. It takes more than one person to build anything.

I used to work in the securities industry and we had a lot of analysts that frequently spoke of the need to completely integrate all systems into one cohesive package. Some of the folks I worked with simply referred to this dream project as "GOBS" ... the Galactic Online Brokerage System.
There was no possible way to take this project on and succeed because the pace of change was and is so great and so much of that change is driven by little breakaway specialty companies. Essentially achieving cohesion and standards is entirely dependent on the activity being profitable to the entire market.... aka never going to happen.

The project you describe is ambitious and demonstrates a great deal of creative thinking. Sadly computing is not likely to be where you need it for some time.

The greatest issue I see is the impact of scale. If you are looking at a massive multiplayer game you are already dealing with a techical challenge in rendering your characters and environment.

I like the concept of the directional movement sphere but the computational aspects of this, especially on large maps with hundreds of players, are huge. If half of the players are computing rotational corrections from gimbal lock a fair number of game engines will blow a stack and crash. You need an engine custom built to accomplish this. You will need some very talented programmers to help take any engine you can afford in this direction.

Planetside 2 is a free game you can play that can show you what you can expect for the next 5 years in terms of large terrain, many players. Check it out. Vegetation rendering is quite educational as you run through the map. The engine sony is using is proprietary and not likely to be available to us hobbyists.

The issue of course is that the servers that run the game are well tricked out ponies and the load on your own cpu is large as well.

If you want to create a lot of flexibility in the game engine you need to code your brains out. Every feature you want to add creates code, memory requirements, cpu requirements and OS complexity.

The best open source game engine I can think of that has the scalability and physics that you might be looking for is the unreal engine. Unity has a lot of tools and the multiple deployment points is a great plus as well. I have a great deal to learn about this tool before I can recommend it for large projects.

The best part of the Unreal license agreement is that you can build a game for commercial purposes without paying a dime. After you achieve a certain dollar amount of sales you pay a percentage royalty.... 25% if I remember correctly. Check this out and read the license agreement.

When I first researched using the unreal engine around 15 years ago it was $100k US and an NDA secured by your testes just to talk. It really is a first class tool.

Good hunting.

This is a good thread! I like your mentatlity about a balanced set of tools, but yes, knowing one strong tool is also helpful for team work. Some people don't have the aptitude to work through various systems, but there is no one way to skin a cat.

From the looks of it your project does look HUGE, and 12 years of thought and planning must be quite something! Very well thought out I assume! I can see how you got to the conclusion that building such a large project cannot be done on your own. I have come to conclusions like that and have learnt to work with others a little, or stick to less ambitious projects! Sometimes finishing what you started is more important and valuable than a fantastic idea that will wow the world and even yourself. Dreams are great, but I keep having to remind myself that it's 1 percent inspiration and the rest is all hard work. But shoot for the moon, maybe hit the top of the highest mountain. My dad always told me that one, and I still like it. It's just hard getting the idea to reality.

I'm sorry you lost most of your work in a fire. That was unfortunate.

Will you share some of your concept work? What work have you done so far?

Hope to see more!

I am currently stuck using an IBM ThinkPad for the gathering needed programs and have a pair of external HDs for additional storage.
Looking for a desktop at the moment that will allow me once more to start putting everything that I have on paper. Was looking at Alienware gaming system as a base in which to begin again. Not sure if I should go AMD or Intel, and should I go with single or dual CPU. I do like the idea of maybe using something that is initially a single that could be expanded to dual at a later date.

The existing storylines:
the Koohra are the genetic source material for all the other playable tribes but exist unbeknownst to them. I used a historical record of the Nordic people that once had a settlement on the shores of Greenland. Ranging in height from dwarf to giant. A hierarchy based on height but with the exception of eyes that determine also special status, black or red with black pupils.

the Ancients, a space faring race that founded the existing world and terraformed it from an existing moon that orbits a brown dwarf, this is the science fiction aspect of the game. The storyline begins as there was a great cataclysm that affected the entire planet, in a great flash that turned night into day, a wound upon the Mother was afflicted (a land of obsidian and lava pools, with basalt cliffs), fertile lands became the Sea of Ash, nearby bay became the Blood Marshlands, and a nearby forest became the Ironwood Forest. Within several days after, while everyone had been adjusting, the dome of the Koohra shattered and the lands surrounding the dome became The Broken Lands, the moon split in half and a small star appeared between the two halves. Another tribe of the world was affected by this, because they were heavily influenced by the lunar cycle, cubs born had been blessed (or cursed) with a genetic anomaly, dual encephalon.

the Ancients did leave behind the relics of technology used to terraform a planet, these relics are hidden from plain site but in the minds of the existing tribes are perceived as sacred sites.
-the Spire that reaches upwards beyond the clouds (the device within was used to create the sustainable atmosphere and weather system)
-the Stormlands, a plain blackened by constant lightning and a mountain near it's center which has also been blackened by constant lightning. Actually the plain is the largest concentration of lodestone which had been exposed by the original cataclysm. The mountain at the center is sacred to the tribe of the Drataurs. A tribe genetically altered by the Ancients combining Koohra with Behemoth. (within the mountain depths is the Archives, it is also where the origins of the Shadowcaster, Geomancer, Symbion, and Blooddancer originated)
-the Great Sea also known as the Great Sea Expanse, because no one knows exactly how big it actually is or even if there is land that exists beyond. (at the great depths of the Sea is where the device used to create the Great Sea Expanse, would be found)

There exist origin storylines, but also the storylines that players create themselves.

I have much more content than what is posted here and I don't think the admin would appreciate me posting @200 pages of content in this thread.

The idea is to have the opportunity for players to interact with each other, create groups, establish and maintain settlements, much like SecondLife originally intended before more specific interest groups began to segregate themselves. I suppose that will always happen within large scale gaming worlds.
Can't control what players do in a world, only provide for them a world in which to play and have fun doing so.
That's all I really want to do.

edit:
After doing some additional research, I have decided to dispense with a serial built pc and go with a parallel built pc. That may be the most cost effective purchase rather than go with the usual task of having purchase multiple pc's to handle the project. With parallel, I can have multiple HDs and multiple processors to handle the load.
Currently reading that the limit is a pair on one site but on another it's not unheard of to have 4 or even more.
Unless someone knows anything about processors, it looks like I will have to go with the Xeon 1366. This is going to require further research.

Just spent the day hashing and re-hashing system generators and playing with various fractal terrain generators. Where does the time go?
You would think that fractal software would be easier to use or at least progressed in development since it was originally released for DOS.
Telling me I can create something and export it into Blender or use POVray. Geez, can you still get that program?
It was actually a godsend as programs go as you could either create models using script or work on a model and have the result as a script. I miss POVray.
At least I managed to generate a heavens so when players have their characters look up they will actually see stars to inspire. There is really no point in having a Seafaring skill or Flight without some means to navigate at night.
Geomancers also need other worlds to travel to or they just become a useless profession.

I'm kind of reminded of a Saturday morning cartoon I used to watch as a child, Thundarr, the Barbarian, science and sorcery.

If cost is a issue for you, I strongly urge you to look at , Maratis:

http://www.maratis3d.com/"

Very light wonderful engine, and while it doesn't have a full feature set atm ( being worked on by several people, and of course plugins can be made), what it makes is a great start at something. It has official blender and 3dsmax exporters,and many more are coming as the author is working on integrating ASSIMP.

I'm using the engine, and I think one of the nicest things is its awesome editor, which works for mac, win, osX ,iphone and android.


There are tons of tutorials by author and lots more by the community , so it might just surprise you.

The biggest thing to me other than its light framework, is that the engine license is MIT.

You can also work with Lua if you like as most of the api is available.

Feel free to join us at: irc.freenode.net , #maratis

Good luck
nl