United3dArtists Archive

Hi guys,

I'm assuming you all have some movie editing software, so I'm after some recommendations.

I've been using Apple's little iMovie app for years, but now that I have 3D modellling capability, and I'mm using my models in my little films, I want to upgrade to a better movie editor.

Heard bad things about some of them, (like Pinnacle), but I don't know of any others for PCs except SONY Vegas Movie 9. I'm trialling that now, but so far am less than impressed.

What I want is an editor a bit above entry level, (translation: not too expensive), but something good and reliable.

Any suggestions>

Thanks,
Kurt.

Pinnacle VideoSpin it's a good one... and It's FREE
Search about and see if what you want.

Hi Kurt,

The king of video editing on a PC is Adobe Premiere. But you don't have to spend US$640-700 for the professional CS4 version. You can get the consumer-oriented Premiere Elements 7 for about US$50-65. It has many of the features of the pro version for about 1/10th the cost. That's my first choice for a low-cost entry-level video editor.

An even better deal is to purchase Adobe Photoshop Elements 7 and Premiere Elements 7 bundled together for about US$83 (based on prices at Amazon.com 20-Aug-09 --- note: in my experience, prices can fluctuate a lot at Amazon).

Best regards, First Light

leonregis wrote:Pinnacle VideoSpin it's a good one... and It's FREE
Search about and see if what you want.

Well, the price is right!

Thanks, Leon, I'll take a look at it.

Cheers,
Kurt

First Light wrote:Hi Kurt,

The king of video editing on a PC is Adobe Premiere. But you don't have to spend US$640-700 for the professional CS4 version. You can get the consumer-oriented Premiere Elements 7 for about US$50-65. It has many of the features of the pro version for about 1/10th the cost. That's my first choice for a low-cost entry-level video editor.

An even better deal is to purchase Adobe Photoshop Elements 7 and Premiere Elements 7 bundled together for about US$83 (based on prices at Amazon.com 20-Aug-09 --- note: in my experience, prices can fluctuate a lot at Amazon).

Best regards, First Light

Aaah, that's beginning to sound interesting, FirstLight! Sounds like what I want. I had heard of Premier, but don't know anything about it. I guess I probably assumed it was only for Macs, and the expensive end at that.

Thanks,

Kurt.

Kurt wrote: Aaah, that's beginning to sound interesting, FirstLight! Sounds like what I want. I had heard of Premier, but don't know anything about it. I guess I probably assumed it was only for Macs, and the expensive end at that.
Kurt.

Reputations sometimes life long!
At the beginning Adobe made pro soft for Apple (Illustrator, Photoshop, Premiere, ...). But since a very long time it sells its software for PC. These are the same on Mac and it has helped to connect Mac and PC. The light versions for Photoshop and Premiere are good products and it would be useful to have a light Illustrator. But it is not interesting for Adobe today. Only photo video and musik are used by most people. Other soft are for pro. When 3d will be used by many people, we will have light versions too. To do this we must wait until this is common practice (3d photo, 3d scanner, 3d printers for everyone). I guess the children constructing their toys or their jewelry. This is the next challenge of the market. after music, photo and video. who would have imagined that everyone can make High Definition Video? Tomorrow is for 3d market.

marcel wrote:who would have imagined that everyone can make High Definition Video? Tomorrow is for 3d market.

Exactly, Marcel! It's amazing that the general public now has access to software that was light-years out of its reach not so long ago!

And who would have thought that everyone could have their own television camera at home, too? I remember being over the moon when I got my first Super-8 movie camera!!!

Kurt wrote:I remember being over the moon when I got my first Super-8 movie camera!!!

I remember when I saw the first man walk on the moon in live. This day I did not think it would take more than 70 years to repeat this feat to Mars.

marcel wrote:

Kurt wrote:I remember being over the moon when I got my first Super-8 movie camera!!!

I remember when I saw the first man walk on the moon in live. This day I did not think it would take more than 70 years to repeat this feat to Mars.

Yep, I remember that day, Marcel. I took my Dad's portable TV set to work and set it up so that everyone could watch. The TV was switched on all morning and nobody could concentrate on work as the time drew closer. Then, when Armstrong finally started to come down the steps, everybody left thweir desks and crowded around the TV, even the Boss.

I also thought that Mars colonies were just around the corner, too. Hey, what's taking them so long?!

.

First Light, I checked out and then bought that package that you recommended. I'm glad I did. It's just what I was looking for - something much more sophisticated that the humble iMovie, but accessible and appealing to use.

Thanks again.

Cheers,
Kurt

Kurt wrote:First Light, I checked out and then bought that package that you recommended. I'm glad I did. It's just what I was looking for - something much more sophisticated that the humble iMovie, but accessible and appealing to use.

Glad I could help. I hope it serves you well!!!

First Light wrote: Glad I could help. I hope it serves you well!!!

Yes, I think it will. Already burned a DVD using images. Couldn't believe how quick and easy it was!

But... and it's not a big deal really, I've just discovered that I can't upload video from my mini dv camera to Premiere, because the computer won't recognise my camera.

After searching all over the Net, I'm beginning to suspect that it might have something to do with the fact that I'm runing Vista, and that OS cannot see my camera, (Canon MVX40i).

Still got a bit of checking to do, but if it turns out to be an OS limitation, I'll just have to go back to using XP.

Cheers,
Kurt.

Windows XP is more stable and requires less memory, I think is the best OS available in nowadays! I will use until is totally obsolete. Good Luck

leonregis wrote:Windows XP is more stable and requires less memory, I think is the best OS available in nowadays! I will use until is totally obsolete. Good Luck

Couldn't agree more, Leon! Matter of fact, I've fixed the camera/computer problem by ditching Vista and installing a fresh copy of XP. Evidently it was something about Vista that was preventing Premiere from recognising the camera.

I googled Vista, and was astonished to read so much bad press about it. Worst thing was that it requires 2G of RAM just to run itself!!! That's just unacceptable.

Anyway, all's good now.

Kurt.

Good for you, but XP still my favorite

leonregis wrote:Good for you, but XP still my favorite

Mine, too, Leon!

What didn't you like about sony vegas?

PS: you guys are into space stuff? Whenever I get my own
web page going, I will upload the scans of my father's
space collection. I donted it all to a museum, but I
made scans of everything first.

I love space stuff!!! Give to me the link when the site is ready.

Thanks

tylerzambori wrote:What didn't you like about sony vegas?

Speaking for myself, tyler, I found Sony Vegas a bit "unfriendly". The UI just didn't invite me in, so to speak. Maybe it was because I come from Apple's iMovie, which can be used by any 10 year-old kid!

Vegas was like a person who doesn't want others to get to know him, if that's a useful analogy. I found I had to hunt around too much, just to find anything.

PS: you guys are into space stuff? Whenever I get my own
web page going, I will upload the scans of my father's
space collection. I donted it all to a museum, but I
made scans of everything first.

Sure, thanks!

I use EditStudio (http://www.mediachance.com/) to create, cut and adding sound to my videos.

BUT i don't encode with it - sometimes it crashes if i want do encode directly in xvid, divx or something. I create first a uncompressed avi that works always. To encode the "final" video i then use Virtual Dub or another software (i.e. if i need it as MPG etc.)

DesignDevil wrote:I use EditStudio (http://www.mediachance.com/) to create, cut and adding sound to my videos.

BUT i don't encode with it - sometimes it crashes if i want do encode directly in xvid, divx or something. I create first a uncompressed avi that works always. To encode the "final" video i then use Virtual Dub or another software (i.e. if i need it as MPG etc.)

With the problems I'm having with Premiere, DD, I might check it out.....

I spoke too soon, FirstLight. Premiere is giving me all kinds of grief. Adobe's forums are full of very helpful people who help out, but the more I read the more I suspect Premiere is not the NLE it used to be.

Do you use it yourself?

Kurt.

What about the Pinnacle VideoSpin, you tested it yet?

Most of what I do is very basic - I use a program by Stoik called Videoman which I've had for years. Its not very sophisticated, kind of a poor man's Premiere 4. I'm helping a friend with a project and we are using the full pro version of Sony Vegas - I'm actually very impressed with it. Its powerful, oodles of options and meshes extremely well with Sony audio software. It isn't cheap though so I won't be buying my own copy. There is the nub of the problem - if you want something sophisticated it is going to cost you. I've looked at the more pocket friendly versions of Vegas and they leave out the tools and capabilities that are the most tempting. There is yet to appear a usable open source compositing program. The real question in the end is one of what do you NEED to be able to do with it?

With Videoman I just use it primarily as a program for assembling frame sequences, attaching audio and outputting to a video format - avi, divx or wmv. I don't do any fancy layer compositing or special effects in it (beyond cross fading) basically because it can't. Any processing I need is done in paint shop pro with batch processing of frames by script or rendered via whatever 3d program or layered and pimped-out in pIllusion and output to a frame sequence for assembly. Its a matter of making the most of the tools I've acquired over the years - but I really would like a nice proper compositor. Just can't afford one worth having.

Kurt wrote:I spoke too soon, FirstLight. Premiere is giving me all kinds of grief. Adobe's forums are full of very helpful people who help out, but the more I read the more I suspect Premiere is not the NLE it used to be.

Do you use it yourself?

Hi Kurt,

It's best to use the full name or you won't be understood by some readers because Adobe has more than one video editor with "Premiere" in the name. If I remember, you purchased Premiere Elements. Premiere (no "Elements") is a professional program and I know pros who prefer it (and After Effects) over Apple's Final Cut Pro. So its got to be very good to compete at that level. But they are pros and I'm a beginner when it comes to video editing.

Yes, I have Premiere Elements 7, but I haven't done much with it yet. I picked it up because I needed an inexpensive video editor that can handle high definition video. Eventually, I'll upgrade my Adobe Creative Suite to the Master version (for my work) which will include the pro version of Premiere. I figured that if I learn the Elements version now, it will help me later.

One of the things I usually do with a new program is get a good book or training course for it. This was a challenge for Premiere Elements 7 and the best book I could find was "The Muvipix.com Guide To Adobe Premiere Elements 7" by Steve Grisetti. It can save a lot of time and trouble. The author made a pretty big deal about the video format at the heart of Premiere Element's core engine and how you should convert your video to this format first before beginning editing and things would go much more smoothly. But I can't remember the format and I can't find my copy of the book either---it's been a while.

You might be able to find more information from the muvipix.com website.

Don't give up---video editing is somewhat like 3D in that it can have a steep initial learning curve.

Best regards, First Light

I have Ulead (Corel) Video Studio 11. It works well for editing small things for web display. I haven't used most of its abilities so I don't know what it can do for large productions.

leonregis wrote:What about the Pinnacle VideoSpin, you tested it yet?

Not yet, Leon. I decided to persevere with Premiere before I abandon it altogether.

I suspect it used to be a much better program than its latest version would suggest.

Burnart wrote:....Any processing I need is done in paint shop pro with batch processing of frames by script or rendered via whatever 3d program or layered and pimped-out in pIllusion and output to a frame sequence for assembly.

Now, that's intriguing, Burnart! Are you saying it's possible to move video footage as a sequence of frames to an app like Paint Shop pro, and apply effects to each frame via a batch process, then export that back to the NLE and convert it back to motion footage?

First Light wrote:Hi Kurt,

It's best to use the full name or you won't be understood by some readers because Adobe has more than one video editor with "Premiere" in the name. If I remember, you purchased Premiere Elements. Premiere (no "Elements") is a professional program and I know pros who prefer it (and After Effects) over Apple's Final Cut Pro. So its got to be very good to compete at that level. But they are pros and I'm a beginner when it comes to video editing.

Yes, you're right, First Light, it's Premiere Elements 7. And if some people prefer it over FC, that certainly is a heck of a good argument for it!

One of the things I usually do with a new program is get a good book or training course for it. This was a challenge for Premiere Elements 7 and the best book I could find was "The Muvipix.com Guide To Adobe Premiere Elements 7" by Steve Grisetti. It can save a lot of time and trouble. The author made a pretty big deal about the video format at the heart of Premiere Element's core engine and how you should convert your video to this format first before beginning editing and things would go much more smoothly. But I can't remember the format and I can't find my copy of the book either---it's been a while.

Yes, I know Steve from the Premiere Elements forum. Very helpful guy and I've followed some of his suggestions already. He's also mentioned the muvipix.com website and I definitely intend to join up there.

Don't give up---video editing is somewhat like 3D in that it can have a steep initial learning curve.

Best regards, First Light

You can say that again! But I expected that. What I didn't expect were the technical glitches I'm experiencing. Frustrating this is, it's not easy to tell hardware problems from software problems without lots of painstaking work.

Still, I'll keep at it. I got the new computer and Premiere for the sole purpose of getting the most out of Truespace. I'm not giving up yet! Too much fun to be had!

Thanks for your interest, First Light,
Kurt.

Finis wrote:I have Ulead (Corel) Video Studio 11. It works well for editing small things for web display. I haven't used most of its abilities so I don't know what it can do for large productions.

I have Corel Ulead stashed away somewhere, Finis. It came with an external hard drive for my Mac, if I remember correctly . Never tried editing on it, but I'll dig it out and see what it can do anyway.

Cheers,
Kurt

Burnart's Paint Shop Pro use reminded me of Animation Shop. It came with Paint Shop Pro. I've used it for editing on small videos.

Finis wrote:Burnart's Paint Shop Pro use reminded me of Animation Shop. It came with Paint Shop Pro. I've used it for editing on small videos.

This just gets better. I have Animation Shop, too. But by "small" I take it you mean small screen size, Finis, not short DVDs?

Hello again Kurt,

One more thing: Even though I'm new to video editing, myself, I have friends who are pros and do it for a living. One of the things I've observed is that, no matter how great your software and hardware, the video editing process is filled with "gotcha's" that can torpedo a project.

Successful media creators develop a workflow that works for them regarding file formats and hardware hookups. Most of the one's I know receive HD video only on large flash memory cards and portable hard drives now from videographers so it's less about hardware problems and more about codecs, file formats, compression standards, etc.

It leads me to believe that video editing is not something you want to learn by yourself by experimentation. Learning how successful media creators do it will save enormous time and frustration. The folks at Muvipix.com do a lot of work with Premiere Elements and produce some nice work.

Best regards, First Light

That makes sense, First Light. Anything turns out better if it's planned and consistent. And software that doesn't have at least a few glitches doesn't exist yet.

I think you're right that it's all about consistency. Working out a dependable regimen so that you get the most out of what you're using.

I've joined up at Muvipix and am in the process of exploring the forums before diving in. From what I've seen so far, they do seem to be mostly professional video guys.

Cheers,
Kurt

Just to clarify something I said earlier. Partly its the limitation of the software I have and partly its my limitations as an artist but I always work in frame sequences and only go to avi at the end. With the software I have it affords me more options. Makes for a messy hardrive though with lots of directories full of hundreds if not thousands of images. With better hardware and software I might change my habits but I don't see it happening any time soon.

Burnart wrote:Just to clarify something I said earlier. Partly its the limitation of the software I have and partly its my limitations as an artist but I always work in frame sequences and only go to avi at the end. With the software I have it affords me more options. Makes for a messy hardrive though with lots of directories full of hundreds if not thousands of images. With better hardware and software I might change my habits but I don't see it happening any time soon.

Understood, Burnart. But I'm still curious about that procedure where you can add effects to footage by importing it into, say, Photoshop, and applying layers of effects and/or artifacts by batch processing it. It sounds as if you can retouch individual photgraphs, hundreds at a time, then export them as playable footage again.

This intruiges me because it would mean that I could add elements to a scene that previously would require me to use chromakey, (which isn't always impressive in the final product, especially where the element you want to key in has curved edges.)

To me, that procedure seems like more of an opportunity than a limitation. Can you elaborate on exactly what things you can add to frames using Paint Shop or similar photo retouching applications? Can you only change image characteristics like colour, contrast, brightness, etc?

Or can you superimpose other objects over the image objects, like you can in the chromakey process?

Sorry Kurt thats not what I'm doing. If I want to combine 2 elements say a full frame image sequence and an alpha channelled sequence of images I might do that in pIllusion (particle Illusion from Wondertouch). Alternately I could load the alpha channelled item onto a plane and re-render with the full frame image sequence in the background. Kind of a manual multipass approach.

I use paint shop prop for image tweaking, colour alteration, smoothing, cropping, resizing, applying ps plugins etc. To combine elements you would need to be able to get your paint program to read 2 (or more) lists of images at once - one to use as the base layer and one to use as the overlay. As far as I know that can't be done with psp9 though I can't vouch for later versions or any other software. I could be wrong though - I haven't looked into it sufficiently.

Yes, I can see how that would be a bit tricky. Two complete sequences of images to be married together would present a challenge for a photo-retouching app., I guess. Oh well, PE7 has got chromakeying anyway.

The other thing I wanted to be able to do was what you currently do - that is, tweak the images of a sequence. I checked out the "batch" tool in Photo Paint but couldn't see how to make it do that.

Rather than clog up this forum with off-topic stuff, I'll google a forum on Paint Shop and pester them instead.

Thanks for your help.

Kurt

I take it you mean small screen size

I don't know what the pixel limits are. I think Animation Shop is meant for making animated gifs so it does not handle large sequences of frames efficiently. It also has been vs. 3 forever so I don't think it is being updated. It does have a selection of transitions, filters, and FX. Sometimes I find something nice there that is easier or not in other software. So it might have a role as supporting software but not as a full movie editor. I made the opening sequence and credits on this with it: movie (lower quality here for file size)

Hope it works out Kurt. The scripting in paint shop pro is pretty straightforward - hit the script record - manually process a single image - end and save the script you just recorded. Then use the batch process option with the apply script function ticked and the required script selected. Bob's your uncle - its fast too. Also you can open the scripts up in notepad and modify them manually if you want. Its a very nicely implemented capability in psp and a whole lot cheaper then photoshop.

Very cute film, finis. Love the tiny white "asteroids" doubling for snow in the snow globe!

Kurt.

Excellent! Thanks Burnart. I've printed that out - now all I have to do is learn how to write scripts. Never looked at that side of things before. Always just relied on the UI.

But I'm sure I'll get the hang of it.

Thanks,
Kurt.

Hi again Kurt - I was talking about Paint Shop Pro I think you mentioned Photo Paint - although they are both Corel software these days they are different programs. I have no idea how scripts are implemented in Photo Paint.

Kurt wrote:

Burnart wrote:Just to clarify something I said earlier. Partly its the limitation of the software I have and partly its my limitations as an artist but I always work in frame sequences and only go to avi at the end. With the software I have it affords me more options. Makes for a messy hardrive though with lots of directories full of hundreds if not thousands of images. With better hardware and software I might change my habits but I don't see it happening any time soon.

Understood, Burnart. But I'm still curious about that procedure where you can add effects to footage by importing it into, say, Photoshop, and applying layers of effects and/or artifacts by batch processing it. It sounds as if you can retouch individual photgraphs, hundreds at a time, then export them as playable footage again.

This intruiges me because it would mean that I could add elements to a scene that previously would require me to use chromakey, (which isn't always impressive in the final product, especially where the element you want to key in has curved edges.)

To me, that procedure seems like more of an opportunity than a limitation. Can you elaborate on exactly what things you can add to frames using Paint Shop or similar photo retouching applications? Can you only change image characteristics like colour, contrast, brightness, etc?

Or can you superimpose other objects over the image objects, like you can in the chromakey process?

I do that with Paint Shop Pro. Any visual effect, color, resolution etc. you can do in Paint Shop Pro can be done to each frame of an animation by batch method. Basically all you have to do is record a sequence of actions to create a script then apply that script using batch method to the frames you want. Very easy to do and powerful. Imagination is the limit for animations. What holds the Earth video had every frame processed in this fashion using Paint Shop Pro which was really a downsize from a high resolution render to HD format, 720P to smooth out the jaggies or better anti-aliasing. So yes for me this is a very valuable and powerful way of post processing images for animation.

Burnart wrote:Hi again Kurt - I was talking about Paint Shop Pro I think you mentioned Photo Paint - although they are both Corel software these days they are different programs. I have no idea how scripts are implemented in Photo Paint.

No, my mistake, Burnart. I meant Paint Shop Pro. I have both programs and get their names confused.

noko wrote:
I do that with Paint Shop Pro. Any visual effect, color, resolution etc. you can do in Paint Shop Pro can be done to each frame of an animation by batch method. Basically all you have to do is record a sequence of actions to create a script then apply that script using batch method to the frames you want. Very easy to do and powerful. Imagination is the limit for animations. What holds the Earth video had every frame processed in this fashion using Paint Shop Pro which was really a downsize from a high resolution render to HD format, 720P to smooth out the jaggies or better anti-aliasing. So yes for me this is a very valuable and powerful way of post processing images for animation.

That's great, noko, thanks. Just what I want to do. Now I've got a choice of programs to use for the job.

I'm going to have to learn all about scripting before I can use either of them for that, but it definitely sounds like it's worth the effort.

Cheers,
Kurt.

In Paint Shop Pro you don't really need to know anything about scripting since actions are recorded in script by the program you don't ever need to look at them. All you have to do is start the script recorder and then perform all the actions you want to do to an image. Stop the recording and save the generated script. Then you can use the menu to open up the batch process (don't remember the right naming) which opens up a rather simple window which you select what images you want to process, what script to use, since there are many scripts already besides the ones you make. Where to save the images, what format, you can overwrite original images if you want and that is about it. Actually really simple.

noko wrote:In Paint Shop Pro you don't really need to know anything about scripting since actions are recorded in script by the program you don't ever need to look at them. All you have to do is start the script recorder and then perform all the actions you want to do to an image. Stop the recording and save the generated script. Then you can use the menu to open up the batch process (don't remember the right naming) which opens up a rather simple window which you select what images you want to process, what script to use, since there are many scripts already besides the ones you make. Where to save the images, what format, you can overwrite original images if you want and that is about it. Actually really simple.

Well, that sure makes it easier! Thanks for that, Noko.

Cheers,
Kurt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNLx9pclMKU"

This is an interesting concept for video editing. IS this old? First I have seen of it.

Karthogen wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNLx9pclMKU

This is an interesting concept for video editing. IS this old? First I have seen of it.

Now I feel like a dumb newbie all over again, Karth!!

Sorry if I missed something I was just skimming this post for a while, then when looking for a tutorial on UV mapping the mozaic thing popped up, it was new to me, I was still doing frame by frame image editing.

Karthogen wrote:Sorry if I missed something I was just skimming this post for a while, then when looking for a tutorial on UV mapping the mozaic thing popped up, it was new to me, I was still doing frame by frame image editing.

What I meant was, that mozaic thing was totally new to me! What is it called -UV mapping?? I thought that was the blotchy suntan you get from not applying lotion evenly!

Anyway, it made me realise there was sooooooo much more to learn about computer graphics, and I know I'll never do it!!! I've barely dipped my toe into the murky waters of video editing, and now I find there's a tidal wave out there!!! Yikes!

And you've been doing that procedure "manually"? My hat's off to you, Karth!

Cheers,
Kurt.

HAven't been doing it long I just found TS about 6 months ago, so I know where you are at. Best thing I found for me was to just start. The Challenges are nice for ideas if you run out of things you want to do on your own. But the only way to learn it is through experience, So Pick up a project you wan to do and start it. when you get stuck do some quick searches through the web and you tube, just type your question and the product name and 9 times out of ten an answer for it comes up. Now you learned one more trick and hopefully had fun doing it.

And I found the people here very helpful for the TS related issues I had, and some of them pointed me in some good directions for software.
Virtual dub for compiling an image sequence to AVI
Gimp2 if you don't have a version of photshop

There is a lot of stuff out there and you can spend a lifetime learning it, it is all about finding a method to your madness that works for you and gets the results you wanted.

Karthogen wrote:.....There is a lot of stuff out there and you can spend a lifetime learning it, it is all about finding a method to your madness that works for you and gets the results you wanted.

Don't I know it! One way or another, I've managed to amass a lot of graphics software, and all in just the past year.

Let's see, I've got;

Truespace 7.6, of course
Premiere Elements 7
Photoshop Elements 7
Particle Illusion
Gimp2
Corel Photo Paint
The Corel Draw Suite
Corel Painter
Corel Painter Essentials
Paint Shop Pro
Dogwaffle
PD Particles
Virtual Dub

and for added resources, I've got

Shrink
Streamclip
Decrypter

And to set it all to music I've got a very nice little audio app called Goldwave, which does everything I'm ever likely to want to do.

So, what do you think? Is that overkill, or what!!?

Sure it is, but I got a lot of that stuff given to me as gifts, and a lot of the rest was free, as you know. The only ones that made any dents in the bank balance were the Adobe apps and Particle Illusion, but boy, they were worth every cent.

So, this might explain why I ask so many fool questions here. I'm frying my brain trying to learn all this stuff..

Someone at the Adobe forum told me the very same thing you said, Karth; that the trick to video creation is establishing a work flow and following it carefully every time, step by step. How true that is! It would be impossibly difficult to do, otherwise.

Cheers,
Kurt.