WW2 Entrenchment after Battle

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LeonRegis
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Re: WW2 Entrenchment after Battle

Post by LeonRegis » 01 Nov 2009, 01:41

Howdy Folks, happy Halloween!

Thanks Theuns...
I bring one more image that has some new things but is not finished: I added two grenades, move the Garand, build one more trench, did holes at the Flag and the scene has DOF, just for test...
Of course it needs a lot of more things: Rocks and vegetation, WW2 Backpack, Burned sandbags, more bullets, blood pools (to show that there humans involved :| ), test some lightnings and found a background image...

Almost finishing this composition...
Please Feedback!!!
Thanks and Cya
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Breech Block
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Re: WW2 Entrenchment after Battle

Post by Breech Block » 01 Nov 2009, 04:52

Theuns has given you some great advice already. To add to that, I would say you have to have a clear idea in your mind what it is you want your image to say. Okay, it is a war image, but there are many aspects to war. For example is the war finally over and at last peace has arrived? Was the war over something silly and futile? Did good triumph over evil? Was it all a tragic waste or was it a victory for a just cause? What is your image trying to say? Once you have established this, it will help you construct you scene a lot more, especially in the lighting department. for example: early morning light would suggest a new dawn has arrived and perhaps with it new hope, whilst dark brooding storm clouds would be more suitable for a more sombre, desolate scene.

As for changes in the current scene, I would ensure you could see through the holes in the flag and dirty up the flag texture a bit. The Bunker at the back looks terrific, especially with the DOF, but the rifle in the middle ground looks way out of proportion to everything else. Are all your objects and distances properly scaled? I would also try and round off some of the edges on the rifle as this close to the camera they look way to sharp. You could either do this with the chamfer tool. Or you may get away with applying a smooth facet in the Material Editor.

As for improving the scene, I would add some coils of barbed wire and a brewed up tank on the horizon.

HTH.

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Re: WW2 Entrenchment after Battle

Post by Finis » 01 Nov 2009, 15:02

Back on the ammo thing. The ground is littered with unfired cartridges ... they still have the bullets. There would be fired cases everywhere from the fight. If a soldier dropped some while reloading then maybe some unfired.
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Re: WW2 Entrenchment after Battle

Post by marcel » 01 Nov 2009, 16:21

The position of objects in the image can enhance the drama. Sometime it serves no purpose to fill the space with too many elements. The simplicity of this picture shows many things. That is why it is very impressive.
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LeonRegis
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WW2 Entrenchment after Battle

Post by LeonRegis » 02 Nov 2009, 20:35

@Breech: I usually start my creations with nothing much clear, I just improvise and this is my way, maybe is no the better but is... :lol:
I really like how you explain things, where do you get that ability? :roll:
The wire and tank idea is great, will try to put it in.

@Finis: Yeah, there is some unfired because soldier let it fall or died while reloading, I could put some magazines near to say that those cartridges come out from the magazine.

@Marcel: I love simple thing, ironically I'm not good doing it... Anyway this is Composition #1 and the principal objective is show the battlefield scene, I already have the Composition #2 in mind, will start after finish this one. BTW thanks, the image is good and magnificent simple. Simplicity is a complexity solved!

Coming back... I did texture work and put a shovel, more cartridges a WW2 backpack and the scene has DOF as usual. Now I just need to fill the upper left side with wires and a wrecked tank or something like that, what will be hard to do is the background, I didn't find any background image that fits on this scene so I'll need to create... some trees, tall grass and things like that.

When I finish that will be really easy to start new compositions that will change completely the scenery.

Thanks and Cya
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Re: WW2 Entrenchment after Battle

Post by tahnoak » 03 Nov 2009, 12:24

Looking good. Sorry to jump on the pile so late in the game but this is the first opportunity I have had (since I am away from home and don't have kids crawling all over me) to really study this and provide my own opinions/feedback.

1) Look at the scale of the grenade as compared to the other items (especially the helmet). It looks too big.
2) Look at the scale of the flag. I understand the symbolism that it is providing but it just makes me wonder what would have a flag that small on it. Which leads me to my next question...
3) Do you need to have that flag there at all? Does it matter if it is an American flag or a Russian flag or any other country? We know that WWII was hell and a lot of people died. Maybe you add another helmet that is different from the US helmet to show the loss of soldiers from other nations and remove the flag. To me the flag does not personalize the scene, the equipment that was used by the soldiers who were killed does.
4) I don't see any shadows from the guns on the ground. Is it because of the angle of the sun? I am having a hard time identifying the direction of the sun.
5) The gun stocks look too clean compared to the dirty ground they are on. I would think that there would be some similarities in the color on the gun stocks and the dirt that it is laying in as if wind had blown some dirt on them.

I really like the scene and think you are almost there with achieving the emotion that you are trying to evoke.

Hope that helps some.

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Re: WW2 Entrenchment after Battle

Post by Finis » 03 Nov 2009, 14:34

Footprints would be good. Put a bloody hand print on a gun (wounded using it) or something. Things like that strengthen the perception that people were here.

I think the flag isn't too big but the pole it is on is too thick compared to it. That makes it look like a toy which effects the mood of the whole picture. Maybe put the flag on a taller pole in the background. That implies there is something like an HQ or depot or outpost that they were defending. That expands the scope of your picture and invites the viewer to imagine a larger scene.

With the pole to flag and grenade to helmet proportions being odd maybe you should get some measurements and fit all the models to them or use reference photos to adjust the sizes.

You worked hard on the sand bags but they are hardly visible. Some other objects are just mysterious blurs. If that is supposed to be smoke or dust it doesn't look like it. Less depth of field would fix this.

A German, Italian, or Japanese object near the foxhole could imply close up combat. Items from the UK or other allies might help with "implied expansion of scope".

Don't think that long lists of suggestions mean your picture isn't good. They are mostly just details.
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LeonRegis
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WW2 Entrenchment after Battle

Post by LeonRegis » 08 Nov 2009, 15:12

Thanks Tahnoak your comment is one of the most helpful for the scene...
1) You're right... fixed
2) Adjusted the scele
3) You are right, maybe I need to create some objects that represents other nations involved, but for composition 1 I'll keep the flag...
4) I don't know but is strange, for some reason I think that the light aren't casting shadows, I'm using Noon Light of the library, I just modified the angle and the color a little.
5) I didn't understand it completely, I soiled it a little in my last pic, do you saw?

I really appreciate this comment, thank you very much! :worship:
---
Finis your comment also is great and really improved the scene, thank you.

I make the pole less thick and I agree with you that it looks like a toy before, but I was not sure if was the flag. I create a low-poly depot, where the flag now stay.
The DOF is to strong, I agree. Now I make it a little more smooth, and how can I make something like fog/smoke... to looks like a low mist?
Will work on more objects for the next composition.
---------------------------
Ok I had the opportunity to work slowly this weekend, I fixed some problems and put some improvements that Tahnoak and Finis suggested, thanks again, now I'll work in the final details... like the sky and some foot prints and hand prints, I did some tests with it and the hand prints is almost invisible so I don't think that I'll add it, but the footprints are on the way...

As I said before, I create a low-poly depot (Finis suggestion), an broke vehicle, wire and barricades (Both Breech suggestion), worked on the scale ( Tahnoak and Finis suggst).

Tons of suggest are always welcome :D
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Finis
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Re: WW2 Entrenchment after Battle

Post by Finis » 08 Nov 2009, 15:46

To do smoke, several options:

1. I recommended using one or more planes with textures of whispy smoke on them. Transparency mask as needed.

2. Post processing in Paint Shop or such.

3. For a low layer of fairly even dust or smoke you can use the fog foreground shader.

4. Premium quality but hardest: volumetrics. Simple and advanced volumetric foreground shaders exist on model side. One or both of them allow perlin, fractal, or something, noise that can make streams and whisps like smoke. These are hard to use, make long render times, and need repeated trial and error to tune the effect. Also they work best when the scene and objects have realistic units and sizes and all the units are the same (world, object, all feet or all meters...). An object that is really 8 feet tall should be modeled as 8 "TS" feet tall, not 8 points or inches.

To combine foreground shaders you would have to make more than one picture and Paint Shop them together.
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Re: WW2 Entrenchment after Battle

Post by marcel » 08 Nov 2009, 18:05

It lack dark shadow from the objects to the ground. that can help to understand more the details. Maybe because you use only map shadow(?). combine map shadow and ray shadow can do a realistic scene. Map for diffuse shadow and ray for dark shadow from the sunrise. Map light need to be a little blue (simulate the color of the sky) and ray light need to be a little yellow or orange (it depend of the hour). For the sun use several infinite light (3 or 4) with a little different rotation (about 0.1 degree between each light) to simulate a very little smooth edge for the dark shadow from the sun. Setting of the light can enhance X10 the quality of your scene. ;)

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