Future tS

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worldmaker
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Re: Future tS

Post by worldmaker » 25 May 2009, 11:09

CdeB wrote:Hi Worldmaker,

These are very interesting possibilities :)
...
What we cannot do is redistribute (Tom Grimes discusses this somewhere), what we can do is encourage everybody to go to the Caligari website while it exists and download trueSpace :D

Interesting you're based in Manchester -I will be flying into the UK on Friday to Manchester Airport -but quickly transferring over the Pennines to visit my Mum.

CdeB
Hmm, I'd open it and look at the current licence, but I don't have WinXP or higher to run it.... (soon as I raise the new VC funding I'm away to the ships for a whole new studio of hardware).

Weather here in Manchester is currently running, sunny to warm, but rain is due back from its holiday later in the week. Airport isn't far from me, a quick thirty minutes if I time the trains right, and I was going for a hike over the Pennines yesterday, until I decided to focus on my last effort to grab everything off the caligari site, over a gigabyte of downloads, duplicates and anything else I could take.
Writer of the FREE short story "Dragon's Vale" and designer of the SpringShip

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Steinie
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Re: Future tS

Post by Steinie » 25 May 2009, 12:29

Worldmaker,
A contact name at MicroSofty who could answer your questions or direct you
to the proper person?....Roman

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worldmaker
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Re: Future tS

Post by worldmaker » 25 May 2009, 16:38

Steinie wrote:Worldmaker,
A contact name at MicroSofty who could answer your questions or direct you
to the proper person?....Roman
Right, and here was I thinking he'd sold out and retired from the whole venture.

I'll try to locate him tomorrow....
Writer of the FREE short story "Dragon's Vale" and designer of the SpringShip

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First Light
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Re: Future tS

Post by First Light » 25 May 2009, 18:25

worldmaker wrote:As a writer and inventor (a short story published for "FREE" under its own license, one patent in the process of application, other material under development) I am very aware of the issues and legalities of patent, copyright, trademark and related legislation, national to the UK and internationally.
If this is true, then why did you write the following in your original post?
worldmaker wrote:Does the unrestricted licence for tS permit reverse engineering, and replication of design and coding? According to the tS site you can download it without restriction. In legal terms that could be interpreted at a wide open invitation to take and use as you see fit, and that has been the basis of my effort during the last few hours.
It seems to indicate just the opposite---a lack of awareness of "legalities of patent, copyright, trademark and related legislation...". It seems to show a confusion of the difference between a license to use software versus ownership of the source code comprising the software. Plus it seems to show a confuson between copyrights (protection of the expression of an idea) and patents (protection of the idea, itself). These are issues that many people confuse---even those who have "experience".

We can all ask Microsoft and Roman to make the trueSpace source code available under an "open source" license. Roman, himself, should know who to contact at Microsoft so he would be a good place to start. He has promised to continue to be involved in the Caligari forum (and others like this one) so you might want to start a new topic addressed to him. But if Microsoft doesn't agree to release the trueSpace code, your stated efforts may be better spent in cooperation with a 3D project that already uses "open" source code.

Personally, I doubt that Microsoft will open the trueSpace code because they probably have other plans for it. But nothing would surprise me any more. I'm still trying to get my head around the fact that Roman sold Caligari to Microsoft in the first place. I don't get it---unless he simply wanted to cash out. And yet, that goes against what I know about him. Even his most recent actions to release the 7.61 beta show his great concern for and dedication to the trueSpace community. He genuinely wants to bring 3D to a very broad community so there must be more to the Microsoft deal than meets the eye and we can only surmise that those private plans must have evaporated when the economy turned south.

Best regards, First Light

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Re: Future tS

Post by TheTomG » 27 May 2009, 16:21

"In the meantime I'd encourage everyone who wants to keep tS alive to give it away to all their friends, contacts, workmates, make it available on your P2P services, etc."

I wouldn't do that as you'd be encouraging them to break the law. There are no rights for redistribution granted with the free tS, it can only be legally distributed on a Microsoft website or with Microsoft's express and written permission.

Same goes for use of the code etc too, and I would guess for reverse engineering (could well be a clause specific to that in the EULA, I would check that out).

Writing extensions for tS using the SDK is of course legitimate.

HTH!
Tom
THE Tom G. Accept no substitutes. Why settle for anything less?

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worldmaker
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Re: Future tS

Post by worldmaker » 27 May 2009, 17:27

TheTomG wrote:"In the meantime I'd encourage everyone who wants to keep tS alive to give it away to all their friends, contacts, workmates, make it available on your P2P services, etc."

I wouldn't do that as you'd be encouraging them to break the law. There are no rights for redistribution granted with the free tS, it can only be legally distributed on a Microsoft website or with Microsoft's express and written permission.

Same goes for use of the code etc too, and I would guess for reverse engineering (could well be a clause specific to that in the EULA, I would check that out).

Writing extensions for tS using the SDK is of course legitimate.

HTH!
Tom
I haven't seen a clause in the licence against reverse engineering, although it did appear to be only a couple of paragraphs long so maybe I've not seen the long version. Any reverse engineering, would only be for the analysis of the current code structure to specifically avoid any infringement and assess the likelihood of creating alternative functionality that offers all current users a safe up-grade path to whatever is created as a future alternative to, replacement for or improvement in the current application. The nature of the end result will depend entirely on the attitude Microsoft take to such future development.

I've already given my opinion on the matter or distribution - that Microsoft are unlikely to enforce a restraint on circulation if such circulation is conducted on a private basis, both due to the inability to easily enforce such a restraint and the VERY BAD PUBLICITY likely to result from their actions.

I am fully aware of Microsoft's desire to protect it's core rights against commercial exploitation, such as the distribution of its material through commercial media, in commercial manners, by commercial organizations, etc., etc. But there is a difference between commercial and private actions and reactions, which is where the issue of distribution lies.

Meanwhile, back to the theme here - how to keep tS alive.
Writer of the FREE short story "Dragon's Vale" and designer of the SpringShip

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Re: Future tS

Post by v3rd3 » 27 May 2009, 18:44

@Worldview ... It is clear that you are working very hard at deliberately missing the point. Your argument that you are comfortable with ignoring the rules of the game because you are not likely to get caught is weak and selfish.

Why would any of the coders want to sell you a plugin as it seems you are just as likely to turn on them at some point ?

You seem to think that MS pursuing their IP rights is subject to the whim of negative publicity. It is not. MS have yet to shy away from suing anyone because of "negative publicity". MS are thrilled to death when such a suit gets publicity. It may stop 5% of the idiots thinking IP theft is ok which is enough of a benefit in itself.

BTW Providing additional copies of TS when there are plugin developers charging fees for their contribution is commercial exploitation. All you can do in this case is screw up that benefit as well.

I hope you wake up and get the idea here.

If you want to experience a negative relationship with MS legal take your shot.

I can't stop you from being a jackass, that much is up to you.

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worldmaker
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Re: Future tS

Post by worldmaker » 28 May 2009, 07:04

v3rd3 wrote:Why would any of the coders want to sell you a plugin as it seems you are just as likely to turn on them at some point ?.
Where exactly to I advocate redistributing plugins I've bought, when I haven't bought any plugins?

What I am advocating is some means of relaunching tS as a commercial project, from which all developers, including Microsoft will benefit. Or did you miss that point?
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Re: Future tS

Post by v3rd3 » 28 May 2009, 08:01

worldmaker wrote:I've already given my opinion on the matter or distribution - that Microsoft are unlikely to enforce a restraint on circulation if such circulation is conducted on a private basis, both due to the inability to easily enforce such a restraint and the VERY BAD PUBLICITY likely to result from their actions.

I am fully aware of Microsoft's desire to protect it's core rights against commercial exploitation, such as the distribution of its material through commercial media, in commercial manners, by commercial organizations, etc., etc. But there is a difference between commercial and private actions and reactions, which is where the issue of distribution lies.
Do you read what you write?

You are saying I can do what I want cuz I don't think anyone will catch me or even if they can they should leave me alone cuz I say so.

Your thinking is easily applied to anyone doing business with you.

Enough on this.

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